charlietuna

False argument. Torture rarely yields actionable Intel.

Then let's torture you, and see what you reveal? You apparently have vast knowledge of what people are willing to do with 'strong words,' versus what would happen if someone were torturing you for information. The false argument is that you have no argument. If you were being tortured, the FACT is that you would give in, and answer all questions. This is indisputable. There is a saying in "the agencies", which is "...there are worse things than death!"

RedOctober007

I think it should be mandatory for anyone who runs for President to have served in our military.

@Berlin - I agree! Excellent point!

GlobalRoamer

It is likely that Obama’s condemnation about the practice of torture still resists the fact that it was invented by the Arabs who are still collecting royalties from retired Gestapo men. Blaming the Republicans for these atrocities is like blaming the slave trade on the Princess Cruise Lines.

charlietuna

I don't blame the Republicans, I blame everyone who is complicit, including chair of the House Intelligence committee, Pelosi, and the man who established his own shadow intelligence unit to undermine the professional analysts at the CIA, Dick Cheney. This is about the truth, not about partisan politics.

Anyone who truly loves this country would steer clear of the partisan rhetoric that merely conceals the truth.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/ ...
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Intelligence_off ...

GlobalRoamer

charlie, I need not remind you that the President of the United States is Barack Obama.

If something happened to one of my family, and the President of the United States failed to do everything in his power to prevent that from happening, he would be guilty of Treason.

Anyone who truly loves this country would abandon the George Bush witch hunt, and focus on getting the bad guys out there that still want to bomb our cities. I would pray the President does everything in his power to get all the information he needs to get that done.

Setting around a campfire with bad guys, and signing Kumbaya, and exchanging friendship rings will not solve the problem.

pookydirt

Stern words of disapproval are just soooo effective all on their own, though...

"You know, North Korea... you know, Iran... we really, really, REALLY didn't like that..."

Ya gotta hand it to the Libs. What they are doing is genius in a way. All the people that hate us have to do, (you know, Radical Islam, democrats, etc,...) is talk a good game to their constituents and wait the rest of us out. It's a win-win scenario for them. Radical Islam can continue it's slow march towards Sharia for everyone, and Libs keep winning elections, promising everything to the useful idiots, leeches and do nothings, mortgaging our future, and continuing it's slow march towards govt. control of every aspect of our lives.

NICE! The terrorists would be stupid as hell to attack us now while they are winning big time!

By the way, Torture works.

@John P - I couldn't agree more!

@madmath1 - always love your "companion rants", madmath1!

I wish they'd quit torturing my wallet. 'Cause I seriously have nothing else in there!! ;)

I completely agree with this statement by Kevin: "We are being shown that we no longer matter. That the world's view is more important, than how we feel about ourselves—about America. We are just part of the collective."

This should be a quote immortalized for generations to come.

Another great post Kevin.

Obama has no clue the type of damage that can come from releasing these memos. He made the nation less safe and made our agents less capable and willing to defend us. Easily one of the most irresponsible moves ever by a sitting U.S. President.

@Anon - Thanks for the comment. Quoted for posterity...I like that!

@49er - I agree. Scary stuff!

I came across your blog about a month ago and WOW..... I am so impressed.. ... you so speak what I think and feel... and so do many of your commentors... Great site
Alaskan Conservative

So let me get this straight. Our clandestine teams can't 'seduce' information from a 'man-made-disaster' suspect. Right?

I got it. Let's show them pictures and cave drawings of what torture looks like. Maybe 1080p photo on a 58" LCD TV of a furry caterpillar.

Or we insult them by saying, "Yo Mama so fat that they found out that she started the swine flu." Now that will get them to give up the goods!

Sir RonB

@Anon - Glad to have you join us! Spread the word!

@SirRonB - Your sarcasm phaser is set to KILL Bro! Love it!

BO, the world's biggest man made disaster-ist. Everything he does is a disaster. He's speeches are torture to listen to. Every act is another piece of the constitution destoryed. I knew this man would be this bad and evil, but to be so blantant about it, that's where I'm surprised.

@madmath1 - Very good comment, madmath1! The truth!

Prior to the election I saw a comment that Obama would fail the security tests if he became President. Well it seems that the person who made the warning was ignored. If he had to undergo proper security checks he most definitely would get a fail. Passing on secrets like he has done is a definite no-no.

This man is a total disaster.

I am a white woman and I do fear that people will take me the wrong way when I criticize Barack Obama. However, to me it is not skin colour. It is his eyes. They are evil. They make me shudder. They are like the eyes of Adolf Hitler. He seems to have the same charisma as Adolf Hitler. People think that he is a good orator, yet the man cannot look straight at a camera. This, I believe tells me something about whether or not he is lying - if he cannot look directly at the camera when he is talking (and GWB managed to look into the camera) then he is hiding something.


All the same, America is becoming the laughing stock of the world thanks to what must me one of the worst POTUS administrations ever. I now have to give GWB a pass because he was never that bad.

Great Post...I once came upon a mother grizzly and her two cubs while hiking in the Northleft. Talk about brown underwear. She turned and stood on her hind legs. Ever seen a white man jump 10 feet straight up? That wasn't torture, but I would've spilled the beans for sure. You're on to something here...the Grizzly torture. Not physical...no "bad words"...just plain green fear.

On a side note: My beautiful woman calls BO...BS, as in BSurrender.

Have a good day...

@Maggie - It is sad, the recent announcement on taxes for corporations is the height of stupidity.

@Sam - Agreed that we should let nature do the torturing.

Aside: I'd love to see you jump 10'!

Brilliant post.

Kiara Ashanti at 5:52pm May 4

Look if I believed in torture, I would make em listen to nancy pelosi and Hilary's laugh all night long.

Evan Black at 11:18pm May 4

Real torture would involve Hollywood, California.

Boomerdog

What do you liberals honestly propose to do? Give them milk and cookies or just start lining our citizens up to be killed. You are really good at telling us what not to do, how about telling us what might work in lieu of enhanced questioning.

InRussetShadows

The liberals have no idea what works because they've spent their entire political lives attacking America and buttkissing foreign nations. They think that America just magically takes care of itself and they have to do nothing. When push comes to shove, liberals run away like Good Sir Robin in Quest for the Holy Grail.

After all the liberal bleating in the last few years, I will never again tolerate any snide remark about Christians being hypocritical. These people have it down cold.

So, they are wanting to take the high road, calling effective interrogation techniques torture. They're all worried about these killers being mistreated in any way. Yet, it's perfectly fine to torture an innocent baby in the womb. Burn it with saline, hack it apart with a D&C, stick scissors in its head, hey, whatever it takes. Doesn't matter, it's a choice.

Oh, and BTW, these are many of the same idiots who don't mind showing us any number and types of graphic violence on the screens.

They torture me on a daily basis. I can't stand to watch the news anymore with their Obama love-fest. I swear my head is going to explode.

@ElCee - I'm glad to hear it. We have nothing to be apologetic about!

It took over a dozen meetings for BO to authorize the Seals to use extreme force CONDITIONALLY. He is a weak sister. I suspect even with the usual low-key conservative drumbeat, his character will gradually be exposed. As in thrall as the MSM seems to be, their genetic proclivity to criticize will surface sooner or later. Hopefully sooner.

Anna Mac
Iowa
"Peace through superior firepower."

@AnnaMac - The MSM won't stay afloat being lapdogs much longer. Fox may be all that left - Lord, make it so!

@nerbygirl - SO TRUE! America shoud be FORCED to watch some of the Saddam tapes, the pansies!

Kevin:
If my special forces trained husband puked after watching the tapes, I don't think ANY American could handle it.
But then again, Americans won't even watch the beheading tapes, which are available, and so gruesome that they will change a person forever.
Americans stick to "let's just LOOOOOVE one another".
Yeah.
Say that after your city and friends are blown up to bits.
Sorry to be so serious, my friend, but I've seen the pictures of REAL torture, and they would shake anyone's world.
People watch horror films and go Oooooh, groooos!
But those films are fake.
We have it so good in this country that we've become a bunch of baby bitches.
Peace. Lucky we have it, folks!

Oh, and under this "It's all our fault" President, we are not going to have it for much longer.
Think about that anonymous blogger charlietuna.

Your name describes you: chicken of the sea.

The argument just doesn't ring true man. You're writing out of fear, and fear is never a long-term solution.
1. Torture doesn't work. Hitchen reported that a tortured subject told the torturers that he was a hermaphrodite when he discovered that's what they wanted to know. You'd tell them anything.
2. Even if it did. The CIA has said publicly that it damages Americas credibility and hurts us too much abroad. It other words it puts too many citizens under risk.
Even a dumb animal like a mother bear wouldn't do that.
3. So you want to be no better than the terrorists? You're saying, they've won. Once you become them... you've let them shred any decency America has.
4. The ticking time bomb scenario never exists. Life isn't 24.
5. The Army Field Manual is not nothing. It's worked for decades where we actually got real information and not crap.
6. Terrorists have used torture and Abu Graib as recruitment points for more members. Under the Bush administration TERRORISM HAS GROWN not receded.
7. IT'S AGAINST THE LAW. Yeah... little thing there. Signed treaties. Geneva conventions.. Etc... Small thing I know, but aren't we supposed to be FOR law?
8. If you're a terrorist who's willing to blow yourself up. Kill yourself for your cause. Is torture going to do anything? Really?

Exactly what are you condoning torture for?

@Jack - I will only respond to ONE of your issues. TORTURE DOES WORK! If you don't believe me, then let me torture you!

Better yet.. Let me torture you. I'll get you to admit you work for Al-Qaeda. THAT'S how effective it is.
You'll say anything to get me to stop.

But honestly, just knowing that in this day and age, people in a free democratic society think its right to torture other human beings is kind of a torturous thought as it is.

@Jack - That's the point! You won't NEED to torture me, because I will tell the truth at the threat of torture. The idea that "enhanced interrogation" doesn't work is patently ridiculous! You can't honest believe your own drivel! And I'm sure you know SO much about torture, and that it just doesn't work. Why don't you take a poll of people you know, and ask if they would reveal a secret if tortured or if offered a latte?

I don't mind intelligent debate, but I really tire of stupidity. I have treated you with "kid gloves", because I think underneath this, you are likely an intelligent person. However on this subject you are not.

Don't expect to keep getting a free pass here.

I think the biggest problem is that the public has developed very short attention spans in this technological "instant gratification" society we live in. Perhaps Jack has forgotten how terrifying it was on that day to watch nearly 3,000 people die a brutal and savage death and then watch the Iranian public cheering in the streets afterward chanting that they had severed the head of "The Great Snake." Perhaps he doesn't remember seeing people leaping to their deaths from upper story windows to escape the smoke and fire. Perhaps he has forgotten that the public was nearly 100% behind using ANY tactics to discover ANY information to see that this doesn't happen again. Under Bush it never did, but with a "forgive and forget" mentality like that of Jack, it very well may. Good job Kevin.

@Steve - Jack is just the typical misguided liberal, that believes that meat comes from cellophane packages. Forget that a cow must be KILLED for him to eat. He also believes that lettuce has a conscience. These people live in LALALAND, and only care about the real world when it directly affects them. Let HIS loved one be kidnapped or raped, or let HIM be the victim of crime in some way, then they "get it."

Bad news is we can't prove our points to them in the real world.

You missed my point. You'll say anything whether its true or not to stop the torture. This was proven by the Witch trials in Salem. Are you saying all those people were actual witches? That they all cast spells on people?
This is the problem, you think its torture or a latte. Have you read the actual Army's Manual on what interrogation involves? It's not making them your buddy. But its more effective than torture.

Actually, that made no sense.
So you're saying that slaughtering cows is the same as torturing human beings.
I worked at a farm man. I think I know the difference between butchering animals for food, and torturing human beings for fun.

That's really your best choice?
WWJD man. Cripes.

@Jack - Are you intentionally being obtuse? Salem witch trials were a bunch of young girls, getting back at adults by accusing them of being witches. The girls were not tortured, but succumbed to peer pressure, ultimately.

The army is not the authority on torture, or enhanced interrogation. I know there are some people who need no torture to spill the beans. Granted. Those we will offer lattes. And many who know that TORTURE is next, will willingly tell you what you need to know. But without the threat of torture, see what you get!

And for those who are hard asses, well expect to get harsh treatment. I have it on good authority from my "spook" friends that harsh interrogation will break ANYBODY!

Grow up! Electrodes on your naughty bits will make you talk...PERIOD!

I know my history.
http://www.salemweb.com/guide/witches.shtml

Also look up the Spanish Inquisition. They used Waterboarding as well.
We agree torture will make you talk.
But what it tells you is simply not useful information.
You will tell someone anything to make it stop. Whether its truth or lies.
So therefore. You're torturing for no reason. You're gaining nothing.
Don't take my word for it.
Look at someone who had it done to himself.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808

Read that article and tell me how valuable the information would be.
If tortured you'd tell me you were a liberal.

@Jack - There you go, thinking you are Jesus. Jesus! You can parse a discussion on beef, but can't put 2+2 together on torture. I guess Hollywood's depiction of torturees giving up the goods just isn't good enough for you, but you believe everything else they put out. I guess you further believe that other countries take the "high road" on torture, as they do on say, illegal immigration.

Stop holding the US to impossible standards, that do us no good. You liberals are just idiots to the Nth order, and because you believe something, yea verily, "it is so!"

How is life as an elitist who knows enough about a subject to fill a thimble, but decides he's an authority? Must be nice to live in that mind. I love it when inmates from mental institutions have internet access!

WW "the next liberal knucklehead D? That's my question. Ok here's another one? What would you do if I had a friend who was going to kill you child in an hour, and I knew the details, but wouldn't tell you...offer me a latte, or beat the crap out of me? Oh, you think you could coax it out of me right? Because we are all redeemable.

Jack, there's this place...it's called THE REAL WORLD. Check it out sometime.

@Jack. What would Jesus do? He would probably quote from Ecclesiastes, chapter three: A time to kill and a time to heal. A time to love and a time to hate. A time for peace and a time for war." And buddy if there was ever a time for war it was on that terrible day. You've just forgotten or you just don't think it matters anymore. Torturing for fun? How about watching video of Al-quida members slowly sawing off the heads of Americans with a machete? This is just the type of mentality that makes us so vulnerable again. So sad.

Okay... I'm not really interested in being insulted. I haven't insulted you. Good discussion in my mind is an actual discussion of ideas.
I've offered examples of my opinion.
I've shown where torture doesn't do good. The FBI Interrogator who DID IT SAID SO.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html?_r=3&partner=rss&emc=rss

I've appealed that its against the law, and if you're going to break the law without recourse then you don't believe in law.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4thbQ0fNrs

Jesus never preached hate. Neither did he preach torture.
Nowhere in the New Testament does it speak his words on those subjects. I am not suggesting that we treat Terrorists with love. I don't go for that. But torture lessens us all as human beings. As a father of three boys, I couldn't look at them in the face if I said that we needed to torture other human beings. Nor could I to my students as a teacher.
We're better than that in this country. By falling back on the murderers' "An Eye for an Eye" old testament trap, we become the evil we're fighting. It's frankly cowardice to become that evil. Courage means something different.

Hell, John McCain knows better even
http://crooksandliars.com/medialoader/8094/8baf2/wmv/McCain-Hannity_04-30-09.wmv

Internationally it makes America look week and liars to do what they have so long prosecuted from the Geneva Convention. And Spain realizes it even:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-04-29/prosecution-of-bush-six-back-on/p/

So please... As much as you may want to believe that its good. That its just, that its effective.
It is none of those things.

@Jack. Obama did not choose to outlaw waterboarding based on it's effectiveness or lack thereof. He did it because he said he felt it endangered troops captured in the field (his words not mine) based on the assumption that somehow if we are nice to their combantants they will be nice to ours in return. That's simply a silly and unrealistic view, especially coming from the "Commander and Chief" of the military. This is political correctness taken to a ridiculous level and it endangers the American public in the name of liberal sensibilities. It's just plain dumb.

Hey, why Obama outlaws waterboarding to me is a separate issue.
I think Obama plays way too politically for my liking.
But all my points as to why waterboarding needs to stop and should be prosecuted are valid.
Or else we should issue pardons to North Korea and the Japanese in World War II and everyone else we convicted saying its torture.
Anything else is hypocritical.

@Jack - Your points are not valid, and the idea that you provide the anecdotal "evidence" to support it is the sand of your foundation.

Torturing people who want to kill me is the LEAST of my concerns. And your argument that torture reveals no useful information is infantile, at best.

We have had discourse on this subject, and it just boils down to common sense. The threat of an action is enough usually to make us not have to torture. Take that threat away, and you take away the usefulness of the possible outcome. Thus, you get NOTHING. Of THAT I am sure.

I noticed you didn't answer my question of what you would do if it were your child in danger, and we needed the information. I think you DID answer it.

So enough of this. If you want to stick to the idea that in your dreamworld we don't do whatever is necessary to get the information we need, then sobeit. However that is a dream world.

You've provided nothing but your belief and its based on the idea that the threat of torture would be enough. But you're talking about people who would kill themselves for their cause. So the threat of torture does nothing, and actual torture does nothing.
I can give a perfect example. When I was a child, my father asked me where I found this one stop watch.
I told him the truth, it was in my sister's room and I was playing and found it. She lied and told him she never had it.
He spanked me and spanked me and spanked me until I had to make up a story that he would believe. I told him I found it in school. He called the school and it was never reported missing.
But the fact was, to stop the spanking, I would have told him anything.
You need to understand human nature. Lies occur to stop pain, not truth.
You might want to provide actual proof or evidence or even anecdotal evidence to your assertion other than you believe it will do good in the future.
All the Best,

@Jack - Well my tortured friend, I wouldn't have admitted to what I hadn't done to my dad, as I would not have been beaten to death.

I have all the evidence I need from my spook friends who say that they hare thwarted MANY potential atrocities, due to "enhanced interrogations." To this, I say God bless them. And frankly, if you are conspiring to kill me, whether you know anything or not, torture should be the least of your concerns!

You too, have a good one!

Kevin, you are right on target. Without the fear of any coercion, why would detainees tell us ANYTHING. You'd think liberals would get something so "common sense."

Jack:
You really are naive.
Enhanced interrogation is not torture. My husband was waterboarded for his training.
He didn't have to go into a mental institution for it.
And to quote a Christopher Hitchens Vanity Fair article just shows that your depth of research is questionable.
Oh, and I've been to Salem, MA, and learned the whole story about the "witches".
No one was tortured.
You can't find a better example than that?
Go back and get your GED, buddy.

So we disagree. No need to be insulting. Hitchens talks about the "waterboarding" that's done with recruits. You might want to read a little further too.
And I have my Masters. Majored in English, minored in history and drama. So I'm pretty clear on my history.
Does this mean you're for going back and declaring that "Waterboarding" shouldn't be part of the Geneva Convention? Or that we should have not prosecuted the Japanese for doing it to our troops in World War II?

There's a real run of chickenhawks that go about demanding we torture human beings but have never served before. I have. I was in the Navy.
Lots of folks like to call other people naive because their not willing to use illegal means.

But you haven't responded to the points I've made. Do you hate the troops? Because the Pentagon has said that because we torture, we've made Americans less secure around the world. Because we're willing to do anything to prisoners it justifies other nations (outside of terrorists) to do the same to ours. This is why McCaine comes out against it.
Why any reasonable soldier who has gone through as a POW sees this is devastating to our international image.

So do you hate the troops? The question still remains. Because I have faith that they can do their jobs within the law. They have been. I have faith in the Army Field Manual. It's worked for decades.
America has never needed to be North Korea before. Nor should it be.
You can't be a beacon in the wilderness when you're tactics are as bad as what you're fighting.

Remember THEY want to destroy America. And the only people who will let them are YOU. If you turn your back on Justice and Law and everything America's built itself to be for 200 years just because you think it MIGHT give you information.
Then. They. Win.

I'm sorry, I was going to let this be, but I get a little pissed off at the personal attacks. I am not naive. I happen to have a different viewpoint.
And if you got out of the binary thinking of "Liberals= Bad/ Conservatives = Good" you might see that there's merit in those points.
But being able to stand up to fear is a very hard thing to do, and I know that the easiest thing to do is just say that nothing has value and do whatever is necessary to protect your people.
But that's fear talking. That's not rationality.
Offer me some proof of the opposite. Don't call people names.
This "common sense" you have isn't common or we'd all agree. It's one opinion.. Back it up.
Or rethink it.
Either is appropriate. Personal attacks just diminish your points.

@Jack - You are naive. The reason you are getting kick in the crotch in here is for all the reasons I stated earlier. The US has the high ground on the idea of torture. ALL nations will do what is necessary to protect them from those wishing to destroy them. Perhaps a better question is "Why are wanting to destroy us?" We have done nothing to deserve this, despite liberal protestations.

As for your service in the Navy, thanks, but personally I'm glad you are out. I prefer military personnel willing to do anything to protect me, and not rely on the Geneva Convention. Last time I checked, getting one's head cut off was not allowed. Waterboarding pales in comparison.

Find another hobby, as you won't convince any true conservative that this is torture. Try Salon.com.

BULLSHIT, Jack.
You were never in the Navy.
I can tell by the way you write.

Don't be fooled by this poser, Kevin.
He's what is referred to as a troll.
The arguments are circular and there's no answer, and you get sucked in with bullshit like, "I was in the Navy".
You mean it took until THIS post for you to reveal that Jack?

Use this when you find a troll, Kevin: BULLSHIT.
Enough of your liberal talking points "jack". You almost sound like you're reading them from a script they are so redundant.
You've wasted enough of my time, you poser(not YOU Kevin, you are for real).

@nerby - I think I set him straight, though I agree he is likely a poser. Regardless, we don't need military pukes, but real military.